And we got good and bad weapons again...

Sir Arthur Harris did the right thing.

Morale bombings by the RAF and other members of the anti-nazi coalition have been a legitimate measure considering the terrible and heinous crimes committed by fascist Germany. It's also hard to speak of "innocent victims", because it wouldn't have been possible for the fascists to attain power and to maintain their rule as long as they did without the support of the German population.

At the beginning of 1945 the end of the war wasn't so clear in sight as we are led to believe by our historical knowledge today. The Sowjet advance stopped at the Oder in february 1945 and Wroclaw and Kaliningrad, cities of big strategic importance were still under control by German Wehrmacht. In december 1944 the German troops succeeded in starting the Ardennes Offensive; that's why Dresden's Gau leader Martin Mutschmann even said at christmas '44 that he was happy "to see our people in offensive again."
Still in fall 1944 Dresden was one of the last bigger industrial and political centres of the Third Reich, wich hadn't been the target of bombings so far. Because of all these facts it's just wrong to say the attack on Dresden has been totally senseless and just a cruel warcrime, especially in the perspective of this time.

I'm grateful to every soldier of the U.S., British and Red Army, who contributed to free Germany and Europe from the fascist terror and this of course includes the pilots of the Bombing of Dresden as well.

This does not mean that such a huge military strike may be seen as a good thing. It is not right to do any deed like that one. However if you decide to take the path of an realist you have to choose the lesser evil. But never forget that one does something wrong when killing other human beings.
Something that might be clear and still has to be said.

@Gregorowitjsch:
From your point of view, all the bombings on british civilians must have been all right because the nazis had to destroy the enemys political and industrial centres, right?

I can't understand why people can justify killings on civilians. When I read posts like these it seems that all Germans had been Nazis and deserved to die. This really sounds like racism.

@Gregorowitjsch:
From your point of view, all the bombings on british civilians must have been all right because the nazis had to destroy the enemys political and industrial centres, right?

Please read the post before you answer:

Morale bombings by the RAF and other members of the anti-nazi coalition have been a legitimate measure considering the terrible and heinous crimes committed by fascist Germany.

I'm sorry but it's a fact that the fascist regime got the overwhelming support of the German population. The Bombing of Dresden was just one consequence of the heinous German crimes in the time of the World War II, you've always to see this context, anything else would be revisionism.

Because you seem to be a native speaker of the German language, I think it's the best if I just use the this year's slogan of the antifascist protsts in Dresden to explain my position:

"Selber Schuld! Deutsche Täter_Innen sind keine Opfer."

This post was last modified: 18.02.2008 15:55 by Gregorowitjsch.

Your opinion definitely has some sense in it . However as i already pointed out using the words "Sir Arthur Harris did the right thing" is really unfortunate. It might be the only way but that does not make it right!
It is a delicate theme thus one has to be careful which words to use.

@Gregorowitjsch:
I read it, but who were the british to justify, who are innocent and who are not? Did the British never do any crimes? Didn'z Germany want peace with the British people? So why didn't do the Nazis than a "morale bombing" on a civilian target (I don't think this exists anyway).
From your point of view, all Germans must have been Nazis. They all deserved death as those bombed in Dresden (this seems to be your point of view). Thanks to the Allied forces they showed more mercy than the Germans deserved.

Of course, not every German was a fascist. But bombs do not make any difference.

To be a "Täter" you have to actively participate in a crime. I don't think that children, babys, invalid,... are "Täter". But you do with your words
And if all Germans are "Täter", then don't forget some reasons for the rise of the NSDAP (from wiki):
- Treaty of Versailles
- economic crisis
Then you can say, that the Allieds were accomplices. I wouldn't but this were some essentially reasons for world war two.

Of course the NSDAP got support in democratic elections, but you forget that there weren't any democratic elections for more than 10 years in 1945. Or do you really think people are happy to go to war (except a few percentages)? Those people I knew who lived in that times never wanted to and were ashamed that they fell for the lies they were told.

Besides... could it be that you tend to extreme left-wing attitudes?

The British haven't started a world wide war with 60 million dead people.
The British haven't waged a race war in eastern europe to eliminate or enslave the "non-aryan" people.
The British haven't exploited and murdered over 6 million jews, sinti, roma, homosexuals, so called "asocials", political oppositionists and Sowjet prisioners of war in a time of just a few years.

That's why the British are really in a better position to judge historical facts. But I think the Germans still take it amiss that the British (and the Americans and Russians) have freed them from fascism.

Of course they did (for example the colonial poiltc in Sri Lanka at this time), but these crimes are out of all proportion to the fascist terror.

And we all schould be grateful that they've decided to fight and to defy the German machinery of war.

They've been the ones who invented this way of warfare. Never heared about Guernica, Belgrad or Coventry (and these are only a few famous examples)? You should if you really want to discuss about the Bombing of Dresden seriously.

Exactly!

Do you really believe the fascist regime could have stayed in power so long as they did, wage war with the rest of the world and kill 6 million jews in concentration camps without the support of the biggest part of the German society? The Germans haven't just been the ignorant victims of an evil conspiracy; as a matter of fact the people who resisted fascist rule in Germany at this time have been a really small minority right from the very beginning till the very end.

If you brought war and destruction to the world, some day it will come back.

What a bullshit! neither are these justifactions nor excuses.
Furthermore the first isn't even a comprehensible reason for the rise of German fascism.

Other countries were living through deep econmic crisis at this time too, but only in a few of them the fascist movement got the support to attain power.

All involved countries of the World War I had got their own imperialistic interests, but it has been Germany and Austria, wich started and lost the war, so of course they had to pay the bill.
But the German government succeeded in revising the condtions of the Treaty of Versailies, so the burden of this treaty wasn't that hard any more at beginning of the thirties as in 1919.

What do you understand by "extreme left wing attitudes"?

Everything wich helped to shorten the time of fascist terror in Europe was right.

A nuclear war...

auf Wunsch des Autors entfernt / removed - at the request of the author

This post was last modified: 19.02.2008 01:06 by gottvater.