Excellent point! I suppose the headache of a few extra forms is better than simplified rules that force a conformed solution that is not suitable in all situations. But you have to admit, Germans love the sound of a rubber stamp thumping a form!

Education does pay dividends to the state when a person graduates, but at least in America, funding is never enough to compete with private universities. You have to attract the best professors, have the best labs, best facilities, and that all costs. Competition has driven the price WAY up.

No, no. What I meant was students who stay students and don't work. That is why you need fees to "encourage" students to graduate on-time and help fund the university. American’s think it’s quite funny (and perhaps are jealous) that Germans are angry over such small increases in fees. An average public university in America will easily cost $10,000 per year, if not more.

3rd world immigrants rarely pick a country to immigrate to if they don't know anyone in it (unless they border the nation). Most immigrants to Germany already have family and friends living there. They don't simply arrive in Hamburg and wonder what to do. They are in Germany because of the economy and liberal social system. They have no intention of becoming German to begin with, so "greeters" would have no effect. You also have an issue of compatibility. For instance Polish or Romanian immigrants can adapt to the German culture much easier as all Europeans share some common links. However Turkish or African immigrants do not have these links and rarely assimilate well. If fact, there is an ethnic youth counter movement to not assimilate and to become very ethnocentric. It's happening in America, too.

Ha! Indeed, the German people are some of the most resourceful and resilient on Earth. If a huge comet hit Germany today, tomorrow the survivors would be building new homes out of it.

I just wish Europeans would wake up and solve the issues of immigration today and not wait until the last minute. :hm:

But you have to admit, Germans love the sound of a rubber stamp thumping a form!

Yes, I guess it makes us feel like we have done something important.

There is only a minority of private universities here, and it looks like they suffer from having only few students because of the fees...

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_deuts...ochschulen

No, no. What I meant was students who stay students and don't work. That is why you need fees to "encourage" students to graduate on-time and help fund the university. American’s think it’s quite funny (and perhaps are jealous) that Germans are angry over such small increases in fees. An average public university in America will easily cost $10,000 per year, if not more.

The positive side of no or low fees is more people tend to study, resulting in both a profit for society and persons. Germans are less used to go into debt (looks like Americans have to those study fees) - with such fees about nobody from the working class would start studying. Which would be a major waste of intelligence and abilities.

Current fees of roughly 1,000€ per year are enough to make people study in the wished speed, with its disadvantages. One of the disadvantage is: People will only do what is duty. For example, I am studying Computer Science at an university which did NOT include a programming project in the syllabus. If I had the pressure of paying fees, I wouldnt have done an optional one - and after all, I would have finished early, but as a Computer Scientist who never did a real project.

But since we only have to pay long-time fees (more than 2 years longer means 500€ per half year), I did one and learned more than in many duty lessons. It was already of use, and it will be.

So dont associate long-time studies just with laziness or listlessness, sometimes people do something constructive in the additional time.

There are more pressing things, like the threat of an economic crisis, energy prices, Kosovo, Afghanistan, environment, the question how much monitoring of the population is right and so on...

Didn't George W. Bush graduate at Harvard?

Didn't George W. Bush graduate at Harvard?

Ja! Well, Yale first for a BA and then was rejected by the University of Texas (public univ.) for an MBA so he then went to Harvard. Go figure, he's rejected by a mediocre public university and then accepted to Harvard! So long as you can pay the money and have the right contacts, anyone, no matter how much of a brainless troglodyte like Bush you are, you can get a degree at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. That’s why most politicians in America have degrees from these universities. Not because they’re smart, but because they are very wealthy. Private universities are inherently unfair to the general population and produce fewer graduates and much less research per dollar than a public university.

And thank you Malone for not calling him "president" Bush! He's technically not the president. He's the "Supreme Court Appointed Administrator" or as Bush calls himself: “The Decider”.

Yes, Germans are much more responsible with debt than Americans are. The average American has a credit card debt of about $10,000, not counting car or home loans. In terms of the US national debt, it is $175,000 for EACH man, woman, and child in America and rapidly rising. By the way, US credit card companies are trying to advertise and offer US-style credit cards in Europe. DON'T GET THEM! Stick with a regular bank issued debit card.

But in terms of paying for a university education in America, the problem is with the middle class, not the working class. If you are poor, there are plenty of scholarships and government money, especially if you are not white or of European descent. However, if your parents earn a moderate income, you get no help. So the rich and poor have no problem, while the average person is going into education debt.

Given, but your program of study should be defined ahead of time, no? Average graduation rates here are 4 years for a bachelor's, 2 years for a master's, and 5 years for a doctoral degree. I've heard of some German students staying in school for 10 or 15 years for a bachelor’s while taking German education payments. Have you seen this happen?

Immigration should be right at the top of that list. It’s not uncommon to underestimate the effects of immigration or fear being labeled xenophobic. All the issues you listed have elements linked to immigration and it’s a serious topic that will take years, if not decades to solve. But we have to begin with discussing it now and identifying short-term solutions.

Yupp, it is somehow similiar here. With parents not earning much money and no real ownership of anything you can get around 500€ per month. In case the flat rent is rather low (150 to 200€ is possible), you have more than enough money to get along.

However, you have to pay back half of the money later. In case you are among the 10% best, you wont have to pay - in case you abort studying you have to pay everything. The rules are rather friendly for students, you can pay by installments, there is no interest and if you are poor, you dont have to pay at all.

Middle class students get no single cent, and their parents usually have the attitude "Learn to work for your money", so they get sometimes get nothing and have to work during university. With the risk of worse marks or longer study times because they cant concentrate that much on university...

It is, and you will only get financial support for the defined time. If you stay too long while having no graduation, you have to pay a fee (this depends on federal state, though).

So, students studying 15 years at the university are a real exception (the max I know is around 8 years), and they wouldnt get financial aid in the current days, to my knowledge.

Immigration should be right at the top of that list. It’s not uncommon to underestimate the effects of immigration or fear being labeled xenophobic. All the issues you listed have elements linked to immigration and it’s a serious topic that will take years, if not decades to solve.

Yes, a reasonable discussion with naming all options is difficult because of our past. But I am fairly sure there are better solutions than just stopping / reducing immigration...

the dreams arent corret, the eauropean dream is that everyone pretends to be just as important as each other and to despise people not from europe with incredibly predjudice attitudes, particularly and mostly towards americans,

the american dream is that the higher ups people give support to the lower classes without upsetting the fragile balance of the labour system.

The European dream is totally better, well at least your version of it.

Is it also the European dream to be an elitist? No i don't think so, but when people make posts like this it certainly can seem that way.

Your definition of "the european dream" is a beautiful idea, but I dont think it is solely a European one. Nor is "the American dream" solely American. I saw plenty of examples of Europeans living "the american dream" and I know plenty of people in the states who live "the European dream."

This post was last modified: 07.06.2008 16:35 by vague.

In principle, there was never anything like "the European Way of Life" or europian dream - till now. "They" try to establish something like that, maybe because of intelectual/political reasons. Maybe to set an ideal or model for the world. Ok, modesty is also not a strong character treat in Europe, though more than in the states.
I'm sure the chinese/asians and the rest of the world laugh themselves to death, because of the preaching of this "way of live".

And also quaint and strange for me, "a solidarity amongst Europeans"??

Following the introduction of the topic by Paolo Bulgari and his definition of the European Way of Life as the ability of European citizens to count on the welfare state, to rely on democracy, to live in a healthy and safe environment and to practice solidarity, a heated debate amongst the 24 participants of the working group about the existence of this European Way of Life and its possible continuance occurred. The threat to the European Way of Life was perceived as coming from both inside and outside the European Union. From an economic perspective, the outward movement of capital and the loss of working places due to the inflexibility of the labour market to countries like India and China was mentioned; from a cultural perspective, the loss of solidarity amongst Europeans generally and the European nations in particular and the integration of immigrants was mentioned. In terms of remedies, the number of suggestions reflected the number of participants. Agreement was only reached on the essence of educational reform, the change of the labour market and the reform of the welfare state to facilitate the European Way of Life.

http://www.ue2006.at/de/The_Council_Pres...th=2&day=1

Of course, you can try to make a collage from similar attibutes existing in Europe, but this is not a "collective european way of life", rather a "least common denominator".
I would rather say that the french and italians do perform and export their "life style or culture or savoir vivre" to the other europeans since centuries. (Of course also to the americans)

PS: Ok, the american way of life is also a hackneyed cliche or stereotype to seen as a folkloristic theme, like "the bavarian style" in the states.

PS: Ok, the american way of life is also a hackneyed cliche or stereotype to seen as a folkloristic theme, like "the bavarian style" in the states.

I agree.
Its a cliche and doesn't really represent anything.

Thats why when asked which dream is better I of course voted for the one that is supposedly European. Although I do not think in reality it is the European dream, rather every nations dream.
I wonder what Japanese, or Chinese would say about this. They would probably laugh at Europeans perceived superiority... oh wait.. they already do! I go to a Japanese university that has an exchange program with students from all over the world. Everyone is pretty close despite our differing backgrounds, yet the Europeans who attend the university seem to think it is their duty to let others know how wrong their countries are in their approach to things and how amazing the EU is. The chinese students feel especially incensed by this feeling of "we know better than you," as do I.

One thing I would just like to say,
Beware you Europeans who think you know better then everyone else. Who think that you should tell people how to live and that everything you do is so much better than other countries. You risk turning into another USA. Forcing others to take on the beliefs you think are best.

Edit:
Looking at this, i think my post was a little to harsh and so I retract my statements. In an attempt to point out the fallacies of this thread I think I stumbled upon my own. Sorry.

This post was last modified: 09.06.2008 06:21 by vague.