Poll: Which is better: The American Dream or the European Dream?
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American Dream vs. European Dream
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Donovius
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Post: #11
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Stresemann Wrote:
They are intelligent enough to make their own conclusions.


Yes, they are, but unfortunately American public thought is heavily influenced by television. We get very little (if any) foreign programming. I'm very lucky if I can catch a BBC or Deutsche Welle broadcast on TV. Most Americans have NEVER watched foreign news or even entertainment programs for that matter.

The news you get in Europe is much different than in the US. Our TV is censored, so you don't get to see real reports of war, no bodies or blood. Just soldiers running around. We are not even allowed to see the coffins of the dead US soldiers returning to America. But you regularly see all of that on European TV. What is most unusual is that we’re allowed to see very graphic simulated violence and blood on entertainment shows, but not a topless woman. Whereas Europe is exactly reversed.

You also have much more variety of thought. I've seen everything from Communists to Nationalists on European TV. But never in the US. This intellectual freedom in Europe is what I'm talking about and why the European Dream is surpassing the American Dream because we are refusing to adapt while Europe has been evolving rapidly since World War II.

Americans still see Europe as a little brother. We need to keep you from hurting yourself and and teach you how to live a proper life. But what American's don't realize is that Europe is now more mature even though it has a younger democracy. You're like the young brother taking care of the drunk and angry older brother. Drink

Europe needs to get up and take a stand around the world and keep the US from breaking everything. Horse


Every country has the government it deserves. - Joseph de Maistre
05.03.2008 23:16
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Stresemann
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Post: #12
Freedom of Information

As you describe it, it seems to me, that the US needs a real freedom of information act Zwinker2
Are e.g. BBC or Deutsche Welle catchable on the internet and is the internet capacity big enough?

P.S.: California Independence? - Why not change the Constitution so that Arnold would be able to become President? bigsmile

11.03.2008 06:22
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Irishsixetysix
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Post: #13
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Being an American, maybe I'm just stubborn, but I completely disagree with this post. I do not believe the "American Dream" is the same for every American, or even a majority. I believe that our media is biast, but not censored. The "American Dream" vs the "European Dream" is an unreasonable arguement. I have been to the U.K. and think it is a wonderful place. I definately felt a biased attitude towards me being an American, but not entirely. The one thing you really have on us is historical landmarks, I don't think I had ever seen so many in my life. Back to the point, the only "American Dream" I think can be generalized is what bore us; liberty. But nowadays, is is honestly whatever you want. Sure, some people want a big house, a sports car, and beautiful children. This does not mean that we are some sort of greedy country in whole. And as for the media, it has a major influence on citizens, as in any culture.

12.03.2008 01:21
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Donovius
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Post: #14
RE: Freedom of Information

Stresemann Wrote:
As you describe it, it seems to me, that the US needs a real freedom of information act Zwinker2
Are e.g. BBC or Deutsche Welle catchable on the internet and is the internet capacity big enough?

P.S.: California Independence? - Why not change the Constitution so that Arnold would be able to become President? bigsmile


Yes we need an info freedom act, but unfortunately American TV and radio stations are almost exclusively owned by just a handful of media conglomerates such as Clear Channel, News Corporation, and Time Warner. By the way, all three of these companies are very conservative and routinely censor TV and radio broadcasts that are critical of the Bush Administration or are considered "too liberal". Many Americans are unaware that their local stations are actually owned by one of these huge corporations and think they are seeing open and free news. So getting any of them to agree to a freedom of info act would be impossible. I always urge Americans to go online to foreign news outlets such as the BBC or Deutsche Welle which has a great English broadcast for their news. Or go to http://wwitv.com/portal.htm for internet broadcasts from around the world (getting better every month).

As for Californian independence, I'd need another thread just for that! Changing the US constitution to allow Schwarzenegger to run would be impossible as you need 2/3 majority of the Senate and House to do it. You can barely get 1/2 to agree that the sky is blue, so forget a controversial amendment like that. Noplan Plus many Republicans consider him too liberal which is the same problem McCain is having right now. A McCain/Schwarzenegger ticket would be unstoppable! Tongue


Every country has the government it deserves. - Joseph de Maistre
12.03.2008 22:18
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Donovius
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Post: #15
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Irishsixetysix Wrote:
Being an American, maybe I'm just stubborn, but I completely disagree with this post. I do not believe the "American Dream" is the same for every American, or even a majority.


I'm American too, well actually I consider myself Californian and not American, but that's another discussion.

Irishsixetysix, I don't think you're being honest with yourself. Suspect Just look around at the ads on TV, radio, and billboards. They all tell you what success is. A bigger car and house, expensive clothes, define what a beautiful person is, as so on. This exists around the world, but not to the degree that it does in America. We consume 1/3 of the world's energy supply, are responsible for 1/4 of carbon dioxide emissions, and are 12 times the per capita global average of resource consumption. What is most interesting is that Europeans have a much higher quality of life rating, yet use HALF the resources of Americans. Simply put, Americans live to work, while Europeans work to live.

So you're telling me the American Dream is not individualistic and consumption based? By definition, we are absolutely a greedy country, but I don’t think maliciously (except corporations who certainly are). We’re just doing what we’re told. The US has some of the weakest consumer protection and anti-trust laws in the industrialized world. Europe is beating us in those areas along with environmental protection, health care, and education. That is because the European Dream is community based and originates from the populace rather than the American Dream which is individual based, but originates from corporations and the government.

Just look at the 2008 US national tax rebate which will give $600 to every citizen, unless you are old or poor and then you get $300. Bush is encouraging everyone to immediately spend this on material goods. Don’t save it or pay down your debts, because that would be un-American! Frown


Every country has the government it deserves. - Joseph de Maistre
13.03.2008 01:30
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Z. Beeblebrox
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Post: #16
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Europe must be heaven on earth by what you write. I never felt it was, but maybe that's typically German. Who knows?
Many of the problems you describe are not so far away for us. For example the Springer media corporation controls big parts of the German media. But there are much more than three corporations. And nearly everybody knows, that BILD, the most popular Springer newspaper is just inventing their stuff and that good journalism is something completely different. But, after all they still buy the shit.
But in Italy Silvio Berlusconi, one of the most criminal persons in Italy was minister president till 2006 and maybe he'll be it again soon.
With his own corporation Mediaset and the state's RAI, which he had large influence on, he controlled 90%! of Italian media.
This guy is just doing all the bad things that the stereotype corrupt conservative does. But in his case it's just not exaggerated.
And when I think of the German ex-chanceler Helmut Kohl or Joseph Strauss, there's much going wrong in Europe too.Vangry


This is Schäuble. Copy Schäuble into your signature to help him on his way to Überwachungsstaat.
14.03.2008 01:11
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Donovius
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Post: #17
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Z. Beeblebrox Wrote:
Europe must be heaven on earth by what you write. I never felt it was, but maybe that's typically German. Who knows?


Ha! Lachweg Ja, Ja, very German! I've lived in Germany, taught at a university in Germany, and married a German, so I know what you mean. Germans always have a very gloomy and negative outlook, especially towards their own country. I see it as fallout (still) from WWII. Germans need to get over their history and be proud of Germany and being German. Hehe You have centuries of positive history before then and will in the future. You have a wonderful nation, although it certainly has its problems.

Germany has developed into a global leader in economics, engineering, government, and society. While the happiest people on Earth are in Denmark and the other Scandinavian nations, they don’t have the same economic power and global influence that Germany has. If you fine tune the government, reduce of some of the excessive socialist programs that are draining the treasury, and slow or temporarily stop immigration, you’ll be the world’s top nation. Juerg42x50

I see immigration as a potential problem that will devastate Germany as Germans are unwilling to take a stance limiting non-European influences (another result of WWII). I’ve really been amazed at the changing cultural landscape in just the past 5 years in Germany, Belgium, France, and others. If you’re not proactive about the problem, you’ll see the German culture and way of life disappear in the next few decades, like much of the rest of Europe.

What is happening is not the immigration patterns of the 1800’s and 1900’s. With cheap global transportation available and a declining European birthrate, you could see a shift in culture faster than anyone expects. Multi-cultural societies are not a utopia like some think. I come from one, and from years of political and sociological research, it doesn’t work in the end. Initially it serves to reduce racism and creates cultural awareness, but eventually the society becomes cannibalistic and one dominant foreign culture replaces the native. The human psyche naturally doesn’t like variability. We like stability and over time, the most secure cultures dominate. I'm watching my own culture in my hometown fade away year by year.

Sorry for the long post, but it’s my field of research! Daumenhoch


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15.03.2008 23:02
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Sheep
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Post: #18
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Donovius Wrote:
Germans always have a very gloomy and negative outlook, especially towards their own country. I see it as fallout (still) from WWII. Germans need to get over their history and be proud of Germany and being German. Hehe You have centuries of positive history before then and will in the future. You have a wonderful nation, although it certainly has its problems.


This is right. However, this defensive view is (in my opinion, imo) one of the reasons of the very high standards in our society. If people would reduce complaining and arguing about anything, imo the improvement would slow down considerably.

Quote:
If you fine tune the government, reduce of some of the excessive socialist programs that are draining the treasury, and slow or temporarily stop immigration, you’ll be the world’s top nation.


Dunno what you exactly mean with fine tuning the government. Imo Germany politics suffers from the lack of direct democratic elements, it's too much about parties and not enough about people.

The 'excessive' social programs have already been reduced, with negative impacts on the population. According to the reports debts per inhabitant were very slightly reduced last year (they are still at ~18000 euro, however).

Immigration is imo NOT the problem in Germany. The key problem is fewer people feel encouraged to get children, since jobs arent as safe as they were. The government already reacted with concepts like Elterngeld, I wont judge this due a lack of detail knowledge. If Germans are motivated to get children, there is no risk they die out or become a minority in their own country. Limiting immigration may reduce the risk of becoming such a minority, but it wont help against dieing out...

In short: American solutions are not the way to go for this land...

16.03.2008 04:19
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Donovius
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Post: #19
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Sheep Wrote:
Dunno what you exactly mean with fine tuning the government.


Simple reforms in efficiency as I see the German Government as being overly bureaucratic and cumbersome. But then again, Germans pride themselves on forms, stamps, and processes, right? Tongue

Sheep Wrote:
The 'excessive' social programs have already been reduced, with negative impacts on the population.


As far as I know, unemployment in Germany is unlimited in duration. That removes the sense of urgency to find a job and people tend to take unemployment payments forever. People also are able to cheat the system by taking unemployment payments, but living (and working) in another country. I saw many news reports on this during my last visit. Lastly, education cannot be totally free. I work in the education field and even in a public university, it's impossible to provide a quality education through taxes only. You also have a problem with "career" students who never leave the university. schmoll

Sheep Wrote:
Immigration is imo NOT the problem in Germany. The key problem is fewer people feel encouraged to get children, since jobs arent as safe as they were.


I have to respectfully disagree. You will NEVER encourage Germans to have more children as they are too expensive. The more kids you have, the fewer resources are available to each. But those of the third-world continue to create massive unsupported families which keep them all very poor. This mentality does not disappear when they immigrate to Germany and thus you see a foreign population explosion. With this growing population, they feel less and less of a need to assimilate into the German culture. With instant global communication, short travel time, and satellite TV, they can easily live in Germany while maintaining their culture exactly like home.

There is also a pride issue, where the youth of many immigrants view their home nations with more pride than they do Germany. I was quite shocked to see the amount of Turkish and various African flags outside windows on my last train trip to Berlin, and Brussels was even more shocking. I did not see a single Belgian flag and so many Turkish flags that I lost count. Truly amazing and I’m afraid that Germany and Europe in general will not be recognizable as European in 50 years. Eeekrose


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17.03.2008 20:57
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Sheep
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Post: #20
RE: American Dream vs. European Dream

Donovius Wrote:
Simple reforms in efficiency as I see the German Government as being overly bureaucratic and cumbersome. But then again, Germans pride themselves on forms, stamps, and processes, right? Tongue


The crazy amount of bureaucratic rules has an often overlooked advantage: It is potentially capable to handle each different case perfectly fair. The more you simplify rules, the more cases will occur where a minority is treated in a wrong way.

Quote:
I work in the education field and even in a public university, it's impossible to provide a quality education through taxes only. You also have a problem with "career" students who never leave the university.


Why should it be impossible? Since education pays off for society respective state, it shouldnt be a problem to invest enough here.

I dont see the problem with former students now working at their university, too. If they do it well - why not?

Quote:
This mentality does not disappear when they immigrate to Germany and thus you see a foreign population explosion. With this growing population, they feel less and less of a need to assimilate into the German culture. With instant global communication, short travel time, and satellite TV, they can easily live in Germany while maintaining their culture exactly like home.


This is a problem, right - but the root problem here is the missing integration. If immigrants would be welcomed by (probably paid) Germans and introduced into society, they would reconsider most behaviour patterns. Actually immigration policy seems to look like the following: Immigrants arrive, have to register themselves, and then they are let alone. Contacts to Germans (which could change the way they think) appearantly are NOT encouraged in any way, so most of them look for other immigrants of same origin...

Quote:
Truly amazing and I’m afraid that Germany and Europe in general will not be recognizable as European in 50 years.


Nah, history cant be foreseen by elongating development lines. When the problem becomes really urgent, it will be solved in some way, like an endless amount of tiny to major problems before. We grumpy Germans are quite good at solving problems because we focus that much on them...

17.03.2008 21:23
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